Bach Dismisses Analysts – Bullish About 360 in Japan

i saw several homeless people wandering about tokyo... even one lady layign on the side of the street out side the imperial palace just last month.

if the ps3 is 4 times as strong as the 360 ill buy two!

and japan doesnt prefer the weed in the basement cause they made it they liek it cause they are also selling it! why woudl you go across the street to buy weed when your brother is growin it in the basement would be more acurate.

also... nationalism is stupid... i love living in the USA for alot of reasons but i dont love it no matter what... staunch natiuonalism is about as usefull as painting your whoel body and standing aroudn shirtles in 20 degree weather to watch a football game. i dont follow one party, i dont listen to one news source, and i dont trust my own government ahead of any other... infact we woudl be twords the bottom of the trust list.

that said it shoudl also be considered that the japanese much liek the rest of the world that isnt the USofA are well informed about the news and are more acutley aware of M$'s miss doings over the years than your average oaris hilton obsessed mercan.

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They're afraid, not xenophobic but receptive.With the xbox MS tried crossing Mt.Fuji on walking-sticks,which seems damn near impossible.Now they have the guide and equipment but they still don't know when and where wind's gonna hit em.

I'm not a big xbox fan but i can see when they're trying and i'm sure that's the single most important thing Japanese gamers care about.The good in this is that by gaining their trust automatically they're gettin US and especially Europe credibility strenghtened.

The Xbox was lacking in content,MS was irrelevant and image it projected was:undesirable,at best.And
whosays its easy penetrating Jpnese market!?heck even Nintedo gains its bread money overseas.

To sum this all up i wanted to say that, sure, there's a,loyal,factor to consider but if MS can deliver differently,gamers there will love it.
Spong's today clown-school grade'd be -E:(

the only homeless there are in us now...u cant even afford living in japan..it is not that cheap as in US...u have never been there....a small appartment in japan costs 2-3 million dollars...and a big mansion in us could be bought for 200 thousand..i am in us at the moment...the ps3 is 4x powerful than x360..but u wont be buying one since u are that garbage box fanboy...which has sold just 20 million units compared to 92 million ps2.....homeless on the streets of japan...what a joke...stupid americans cant even lie properly..go and help build new orleans rather than speaking rubbish...send some of your money to world bank...see if u can recover the 7 trillion dollar debt

killzone is 100% achievable in realtime..did u read the interview of SPYRTEK and CLIMAX....spyr revealed that ps3 is something around 3x more powerful than x360...CLIMAX said that e3 demos were nothing compared to what is achievable by ps3 in real time
ibm built the cpus of both x30 and ps3...and it is their claim that ps3 can do 256gflops and it is they who said that each xenos can only do 12.8 gflops...are u following any forum lately....i mean gamespot/beyond3d...if you had then you wouldnot have said something like this ..any way this is IBM's response about cell

http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/people/a/ashwini/E3%202005%20Cell%20Blade%20reports/All_About_Cell_Cool_Chips_Final.pdf

if you do not know anything learn to shut up

How do they know it's in achievable in real-time if they don't have the final silicon yet? It's not like you can use previous experience as no one has ever worked on or with a this type of architecture before.

Also if you read the slides correctly you would have noticed that the 256gflops that is given for the CELL is based on it running at a clock speed of >4GHz. The one in the PS3 is going to be clocked in at 3.2Ghz according the the spec released at E3. So it's not going to be hitting 256gflops.

Also do you have any links for the interviews with SPYRTEK and CLIMAX?

How are SPYRTEK? Couldn't find them on my quick search of the interweb.

nasim007 - "the ps3 is 4x powerful than x360..but u wont be buying one since u are that garbage box fanboy...which has sold just 20 million units compared to 92 million ps2.....homeless on the streets of japan...what a joke...stupid americans cant even lie properly..go and help build new orleans rather than speaking rubbish...send some of your money to world bank...see if u can recover the 7 trillion dollar debt"

Seems to me that if anyone's a fanboy here it's you. As the PS2 proved it's not power that decides the winner, it's marketing and software. For me the Joypad is a big deciding factor over which console i prefer. I'm lucky enough to have all 3 in the current generation and the PS2 is my least favourite - those analogue sticks are horrible and it lacks analogue triggers. Out of the 360 and PS3 I would say the 360 wins hands down for it's joypad design (this is of course without having actually held them in my own hands). The moving of the black and white buttons to the shoulders was all they needed to do. the lesss said about the PS3' the better (and yes I know it's a prototype). On the subject of joypads tho, there is still one contender we are in the dark about.
It's kinda funny this thread started off about xenophobia considering some of your comments. Sad.

You're a silly billy aren't you? I was in Tokyo just last week (holiday, touring reasons - had I gone a week later I could have blagged my way into TGS, gutting but meh) and saw many people sleeping rough on the streets. You have this stupid statistic drilled into your mind. Why, I don't know. Maybe you're one of those "I wanna be Japanese, so Japan does nothing wrong!" idiots. But LUPOS is right. Shinjuku, Tokyo's park just outside the Imperial Palace (can't remember what it's called but it's opposite the Fountain Park) and Shibuya are places where I've seen many people grab a sleeping bag and rough it by the tall tall buildings, or by the train stations.

Instead of being so idiotic and claiming someone can't even afford to go to Japan when you don't even know them (and then spouting more fanboy s**t about PS3), why don't you get some facts straight. Just because you probably cannot afford a trip to Tokyo doesn't mean you should call LUPOS a liar just because he mentions he has.

And disputing your silly PS3 claims isn't the rest of us being XBOX360 fanboys. Quite the opposite. We have the brains to be objective about these things. Oh dear, PS3 is 4 times more powerful than XBOX360, yes? Where's the proof? And I'm not talking about the pre-rendered Killzone demos, or the guff spec sheets that don't mean anything in the long run. The thing is, there won't be any proof until both PS3 and XBOX360 are released to fairly compare the games. And bear in mind both the Gamecube and XBOX was launched about 2 years after the PS2, so as the only console to buy it naturally got an unattainable lead on the competition.

So go on, I know it's difficult, but slip your tool out of Kuturagi's backside and reason with objective opinion.

nasim007... "what a joke..."

Haven't had anyone of the calibre of nasim007 on these boards for a while. Keep it up, mate!

I was thinking the same thing, SPOnG has been fanboy free for quite a while.

here's me lying... dickwad...


also i said i would buy a ps3 if it is indeed more powerful than the 360... cause i am an admitted graphics whore.

but atleast i know it... i love the ps faithfull who just last year where still yelling about how its not about graphics its about gameplay and now that the shoe is on the other foot you guys jump right on the "your system of choice is weaker so it sucks" boat.

if you dont want to agree with me thats your biz... but dont call me a liar... especially when you go around citing theorize tech specs as fact... especially when the whole world knows how good sony is at blatantly lying to its customers in early techs.

twit.

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Being off-topic for a split second; LUPOS, mind telling me where abouts you are in that photo? I don't recognise that area, I guess I missed it. x_x; I guess a week doesn't cover even half the things Tokyo has to offer (bearing in mind it was my first trip out the country, let alone first trip to Japan, I guess I can forgive myself).

On-topic, it sounds like Microsoft are at least learning from their XBOX mistakes and are making some sort of concerted effort with 360. Whether the Japanese will take notice all depends on the performance of Microsoft's J-Launch - it sounds like on the launch title front, things are going to repeat themselves (with PG3, DOA4 and maybe PDZ being the major-hyped titles), which isn't going to bode well in Japan, methinks. MS will need a few Japanese marketable-specific titles at launch to garner early attention. And whereas Sony and Nintendo can take their sweet time with attaining sales after launch, a good first impression is what Microsoft really needs more than anything for XBOX360 to stick in the minds of the Japanese.

to be honest i have no idea what part of town i was even in... there was a large gate thing you walked through... followed by a vry long walkway that at one time was probably very pretty but was now covereed over and turned into a fle-market of sorts... and then at the end was a ratehr large shrine... my friend is who was acting as tour guide is from japan but wasnt exactly full of facts... good for nerd info... knew all kinds of cool out of the way stores in akihabra... but not much for touristy things.

it was actually my first trip there and i was only there for 8 days so we hit a few big land marks and spent most of our time buying toys and merch that i coudlnt get over here without an incredible mark up. not the least of which was my black DS and shonen jump which is an amazingly fun game.

and i do agree with you on the first impression thing... no matter how much M$ struggled the initiall launch was so weak over there they had basically no chance from the get go... which is why they switched so many of their more japanese oriented titles to 360... i still harbor hopes that true fantasies in in production... that would be quite an anouncment for the TGS...

*crosses fingers*

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again you bastard american 200 000 people were turned homeless in USA
here are the maps of people living in one of the poorest nation which has 7 trillion dollars in debt

http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=People+Living+On+The+Streets+Of,+New+York,+NY

http://www.123helpme.com/assets/13097.html

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/numbers.html
http://www.gothamgazette.com/book/socialservices/title/15/332

all these articles are about NY alone that has 50000 homeless people on the streets and again u have never been to japan....i am in USA at the moment and i have been there many times...you get to earn a lot of money there compared to what u earn in US...although living is expensive there...just shut....7 trillion dollars...a number to ponder about

the 256 gflops was claimed by IBM for the 4.0 ghz cell...in e3 u clearly saw that downgarded figure of 218 gflops and also u also heard from IBM that each xenos is exactly the same as normal dual core pc processors and cant do more than 12.8 gflops...in any way the ps3 is easily 4x more powerful than x360

now the SPYRTEK interview

Quote:
/GameStar/dev: So where's the technical journey leading?

Cevat Yerli: In general it's leading to multi-threading, so multi-core and multi-cpu, a streaming architecture, cross platform, and for each pixel there will be at least one shader.

/GameStar/dev: Are you staying with SM3.0 or are you jumping to SM4.0 straight away?

Cevat Yerli: We're gonna support SM2.0 and above

/GameStar/dev: And above?

Cevat Yerli: And above

/GameStar/dev: The new PC processors and the upcoming consoles are heavily applying multithreading. How are you gonna utilize the potential?

Cevat Yerli: We're scaling the individual modules , like animation, physics and parts of the graphics with the cpu, depending how many threads the hardware has to offer. We're going to support both multi-cpu systems and multithreading and multicore. With 3 cpu's with 2 hardware threads each (dual core cpu's) it's possible that we are going to scale for 6 threads. Maybe we're not gonna do it though, depending how fast the individual cores or the cpu-threads are running respectively. We're developing a system that's analyzing how much threading power is available and we are going to scale accordingly.

/GameStar/dev: x86, PowerPC and PowerPC + Cell. All architectures have their own threading organization ...

Cevat Yerli: The 360 solution resembles Hyper threading. In principle it's 2 cpu's with 2 Hyper threads each. If you're asking the hardware manufacturers, that's not the case though. But analyzing it from a software developer’s standpoint it's no different from hyper threading. That means that you're supposed to have 6 threads, but it's only 1.5 threads by 3 in reality. With PS3's cell things are looking differently: the main cpu has 2 threads (slightly better than hyper threading) and then you're getting the synergetic processors. The 8th spu was cut.

/GameStar/dev: Yields?

Cevat Yerli: A pure manufacturing reason. The spu's are not as flexible as your conventional cpu, that's why we have to scale differently.

/GameStar/dev: Between the individual architectures it's almost impossible to port the whole code. You have to at least modify the low level commands. x86 and PowerPC are different, but how easily can you port from one console to the other considering they're both PowerPC based?

Cevat Yerli: You can't port it either really. We're the only german developer that has a PS3 dev kit I believe. Accordingly we can look at the hardware in real life rather than speculating about it. The PS3 is a system that needs further adaptions that are especially written for the PS3 architecture - simply porting just isn't working.

/GameStar/dev: So Sony's claim - you have a nice layer, your throwing your code at it, and everything is working beautifully on Cell - is not the case?

Cevat Yerli: They wish. But it's a long way off that still. The devkits aren't that far either yet. Based on the information on the devkits you have to do a lot of low level work, to get something out of this hardware.

/GameStar/dev: Regarding interprocess-communication: How relevant are the differences between the different multi-threading approaches?

Cevat Yerli: An important question. The following things are very important for hardware based multithreading: Are the threads running on real cores (do they have their own registry set)? Or is there a hardware abstraction like with the PowerPC, where the -two in this case- threads have their own registry sets, but they are still on the same core, so with the issuing of instructions to individual units, both threads can't work at the same time. Multi-threading at hyper threading is only trying to distribute the instructions to the superscalar units (math-operations to integer and float units, load store etc.). With multiple cores the question of bus-connection to the peripherals and to the main memory. How is the cache implemented, are all threads sharing the same cache? Plus: shared memory vs. stand alone local memory. A complete PowerPC core is also part of the cell system. But it's not only an independed processing unit, it's also the host for the individual cell cores. In the cell architecture you
have apart from the PowerPC core also individual cell cores that are connected through an ultra-high end-bus and can communicate with each other independently. If you exploit the optimized parallelizing, you can achieve a linear scaling over all cell cores.

/GameStar/dev: How are multi-core systems behaving on single-core pc's?

Cevat Yerli: As developers we are in the worst possible situation. We have to support 32 and 64 bit, Single and Multicore cpu's, single and multithreading, cell and not-cell and OpenGL and DirectX. The expenditure to develop one technology, that is utilizing all those parameters perfectly is extremely high. The technical expenditure is at least twice as highs than CryEngine 1.

/GameStar/dev: The step from 32 to 64 bit was technically surely easier than going from single to multithreading.

Cevat Yerli: Unfortunately there is no step. We cannot really take the step, we have to support both.

/GameStar/dev: Are there performance issues with the multi-threaded CryEngine 2 running on single core pc's?

Cevat Yerli: The code can run sequentially. You're losing a bit of efficiency, but what you are gaining with optimization is higher. SO the price of sustaining a loss of the frame rate when running on a single-thread pc is so small, that you can easily get it back from that. Most of the PC games are not optimized anyway, Far Cry isn't either.

/GameStar/dev: With consoles, developers are getting astounding performance out of average hardware, because they have to. If this was the case with pc's you'd probably only need a Geoforce4 TI for running Doom 3.

Cevat Yerli: My point exactly. The evolution of hardware is running at such a fast rate, that you don't get to work with it for long. It's the same with cpu's, you have to take your time to optimize. The biggest problem with that are the cache misses. Also, you should avoid a global memory between the individual threads. Simply put: if we are reaching into the same pot, the pot must not change. If I am reaching for an element before you, you are not getting it anymore - or not the one that you expected at the very least. To bypass this you ideally have to change something in one step, pass the result on to the open memory and release it for other cpu's (unlocking).

/GameStar/dev: How to you keep the physics consistent with 6 threads.

Cevat Yerli: You could solve that not only technically but also creatively. You have to go new ways: How can we, and that's a main thing, how can we scale our game from 1 to 8 threads qualitatively. So that the game-play stays the same, but the game is either looking better or I can play it better. On PC it will only be cosmetically changes, because everyone has the power, but then there are big differences in game play. On consoles you can get better game play out of optimizing. That's why you have to test to scales as a multi-platform developer: FX and game play. On a PC you often only optimize FX (higher resolution etc.). We want to scale both FX and game play though, for example from the intensity of AI and shaders.

/GameStar/dev: How does porting work from x86 to X360?

Cevat Yerli: In general the architecture is different of course, but they are quite a bit more similar then Xbox360 and PS3. The cpu's of PC, 360 and PS3 have only one similarity - multi-threading. As a generic cpu the Xbox 360 processor is the most powerful one, if you're taking the 7 Spu's of the PS3 into account things change. Before we had the PS3 devkits we thought PS3 and Xbox 360 were closer in design than PC and console. That's not the case though *laughs*

/GameStar/dev: So you are optimizing your engine for the cell spu's?

Cevat Yerli: Sure. We have to, because we want to utilize PS3's power in full. Accordingly the PS3 will get it's own engine architecture, kind of a sub-architecture of CryEngine 2.

/GameStar/dev: You outsourced the Far Cry Instincts port. Now you have to port yourselves?

Cevat Yerli: Umh ...

/GameStar/dev: ... the graphics interfaces are requiring an extra effort?

Cevat Yerli: Yeah, because of OpenGL ES for the PS3 we have to recode our whole rendering. If you look at it closely, CryEngine 2 will have 2 solutions for each system in total. If a developer abstracts that, the technology is optimized very specifically. Otherwise you cannot utilize the whole power. Alternatively you can abstract it in a way that it is not running on all system, then the strongest platform is losing out the most ...


the most interesting point..............*****************
How does porting work from x86 to X360?

Cevat Yerli: In general the architecture is different of course, but they are quite a bit more similar then Xbox360 and PS3. The cpu's of PC, 360 and PS3 have only one similarity - multi-threading. As a generic cpu the Xbox 360 processor is the most powerful one, if you're taking the 7 Spu's of the PS3 into account things change. Before we had the PS3 devkits we thought PS3 and Xbox 360 were closer in design than PC and console. That's not the case though *laughs*

/GameStar/dev: So you are optimizing your engine for the cell spu's?

Cevat Yerli: Sure. We have to, because we want to utilize PS3's power in full. Accordingly the PS3 will get it's own engine architecture, kind of a sub-architecture of CryEngine 2.

http://www.gamestar.de/dev/pdfs/crytek.pdf

i am gonna post CLIMAX interview as well ...i posted it in gamespot forums under the ps3 section ...u could check yourself...but again i would post the interview soon...since the forum is down now for maintenance

Perhaps in the end once you pass the nationalist bit it's all down to appeal and x factor.

I think it's easier for japanese product to appeal to the rest of the world because japan doesn't flood culture to every corner of the globe in the same kind of way america does or has done in the past. (this might be changing now mind)

Sure, anime, manga and games are out there now but they are very exotic in nature with weird, quirky foreign content and jokes etc. This is something America can't really match even though they are a large country full of weird stuff. If you've ever seen Takeshi's Castle or Endurance you'll see why the japanese are clearly bonkers but go about it with such great sense of weird humour.

Myself and many others will look at 360 and think what games can I identify with 360. The only game that has convinced me to bag a 360 is Dead Rising and that is from Capcom. Capcom are japanese so I have a good idea of the quality of game I'm gonna get. Many of my games will be japanese for 360.

Halo 2/3 is sweet but I need more than that and if I get some different culture as a result of getting the right game then that's a sweeter.

As for Japan and its homeless people, they do exist but are most likely well hidden amongst the urban sprawl, but they are there, I saw some of them on tv around the time the recession binned plenty of salarymen who thought they had a job for life. There's no such thing as a job for life anymore so many will have to swallow some pride and count there blessings, or they might end up living out of a cardboard box.

Currently japan are lucky that they don't have all the lark of developers shutting down as bad as we do in the west (and if they are we hear little of it). However things can always change in this industry so I can understand them wanting to keep the market lead, be it via Sony or Nintendo.

I still think MS might sway some japanese to 360 but overall they'll have the same success as before, if not a little better.