Miyamoto: "Revolution controller easy to copy"
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Topic started: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:35
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Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:08
Joji wrote:
That old AX analogue pad or whatever it's could bears no relevance to Nintendo's N64 analogue pad. Why?
Because N64 pad was the first analogue pad to be design in order to navigate 3D games made for it rather than 2D games like that Sega pad. That is a big damn difference. Sony, MS and all of gaming have great gaming because of Nintendo and N64. Such an impact that Sony had to rustle up the Dual Shock rip off in order to make PSone on par. The PSones pad was designed with 2D gaming in mind but not really 3D.
Analogue on 2D games makes hardly any difference to the experience in the home next to a digital cross key.
Because N64 pad was the first analogue pad to be design in order to navigate 3D games made for it rather than 2D games like that Sega pad. That is a big damn difference. Sony, MS and all of gaming have great gaming because of Nintendo and N64. Such an impact that Sony had to rustle up the Dual Shock rip off in order to make PSone on par. The PSones pad was designed with 2D gaming in mind but not really 3D.
Analogue on 2D games makes hardly any difference to the experience in the home next to a digital cross key.
The bone of contention is Nintendo's invention of a stick that offers various levels of control in any direction through 360 degrees. Essentially, this is what the AX-1E stick does, regardless of application. It should be noted that analogue control for After Burner in particular is a useful thing, and for F1 Hero it can only be an advantage.
The only addition to the analogue stick that really needed to be made to advance to 3D was the C buttons (for camera control), which were replaced by the now-standard second stick anyway. I don't dispute that Nintendo showed the world how to do full 3D movement properly with the N64, but it certainly didn't invent the analogue stick and nothing will change that.
Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:12
That's all very well Nik but I disagree with your last paragraph.
Did you not play Mario 64? Were you not able to walk at a sneaky snails pace as wellas push the stick harder to get more out of Mario in a speedy run. If I'm correct before most games just gave you a run button but with Mario you were given so much control from that one stick (and all the other buttons too).
I'm not going into Nintendo inventing the analogue stick, but it was Nintendo that done the first pad with an analogue stick that you controlled a fully 3D game with such incredible control AND TOOK IT GLOBAL, besides what analogue was happening on the PC (if you can't understand that you need a grey matter transplant). If Sega's Afterburner etc used their pad to enhance the game in full 3D then bravo to Sega but this I doubt very much.
If Sega's pad never left japan that's their fault that no one really knows of it's existence, perhaps it was ahead of it's time but the games were behind. I'm not gonna argue about this anyways, since it's written in gaming history, check the facts for yourselves.
Did you not play Mario 64? Were you not able to walk at a sneaky snails pace as wellas push the stick harder to get more out of Mario in a speedy run. If I'm correct before most games just gave you a run button but with Mario you were given so much control from that one stick (and all the other buttons too).
I'm not going into Nintendo inventing the analogue stick, but it was Nintendo that done the first pad with an analogue stick that you controlled a fully 3D game with such incredible control AND TOOK IT GLOBAL, besides what analogue was happening on the PC (if you can't understand that you need a grey matter transplant). If Sega's Afterburner etc used their pad to enhance the game in full 3D then bravo to Sega but this I doubt very much.
If Sega's pad never left japan that's their fault that no one really knows of it's existence, perhaps it was ahead of it's time but the games were behind. I'm not gonna argue about this anyways, since it's written in gaming history, check the facts for yourselves.
Fri, 29 Jul 2005 01:50
All this talk of analogue sticks makes me remember something.
My older brother used to have one of these http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=2&c=906
It had 2 analogue joysticks and loads of buttons. And it came out in 1979 They were good for guided missiles on invaders and about bugger all else.
But the point of who invented whatever makes no difference because it's how it was used along with the games that mattered.
It was about how well Mario 64 and Waverace 64 were designed around the controller. They were the perfect showcase for it, and you can see that when you play Mario 64 DS because that just doesn;t quite work as well. It's perfectly playable and still a lot of fun but at the same time always feels a bit compromised because of the lack of sensitivity in the controls.
So if Revolution has such an easy controller to copy, is it not a bit daft of Nintendo to make it the core focus of their console? As like people say, can't Microsoft and Sony just steal it?
I think there has to be more to it than that. Like what I say about Waverace 64. Sure the graphics were great for the time and it was a game that I bought, played for 15 minutes, hated, and put in a drawer for 2 years. But then I gave it a second chance and loved it. It was down to the controls and how my tiny little subtle movements actually made a big difference just like a game like Super Monkey Ball too. Both are impossible without an analogue controller and both are just games at their purest
My older brother used to have one of these http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=2&c=906
It had 2 analogue joysticks and loads of buttons. And it came out in 1979 They were good for guided missiles on invaders and about bugger all else.
But the point of who invented whatever makes no difference because it's how it was used along with the games that mattered.
It was about how well Mario 64 and Waverace 64 were designed around the controller. They were the perfect showcase for it, and you can see that when you play Mario 64 DS because that just doesn;t quite work as well. It's perfectly playable and still a lot of fun but at the same time always feels a bit compromised because of the lack of sensitivity in the controls.
So if Revolution has such an easy controller to copy, is it not a bit daft of Nintendo to make it the core focus of their console? As like people say, can't Microsoft and Sony just steal it?
I think there has to be more to it than that. Like what I say about Waverace 64. Sure the graphics were great for the time and it was a game that I bought, played for 15 minutes, hated, and put in a drawer for 2 years. But then I gave it a second chance and loved it. It was down to the controls and how my tiny little subtle movements actually made a big difference just like a game like Super Monkey Ball too. Both are impossible without an analogue controller and both are just games at their purest
Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:39
Some more quotes from Mr M:
The idea that somebody might look at the Revolution controller and think, 'Oh, this is too much for me' is something that I would really regret. That is something I would love to avoid if I can," says Miyamoto.
"The controllers for this generation do not look fun to use. You don't look at any of the controllers and think, 'Wow, I want to play [with] this.' You look at these controllers and think, 'Oh my God, it looks so difficult.' That scares people away.
"Actually, at Nintendo, we're not even sure which is better. Is the + control pad the better way to, go or is the analog stick the better way to go? I haven't really been able to decide which is best." Using the analog and the L and R shoulder buttons was maybe a little hard for the younger players. We were not able to use that functionality very well in games either. On this next one [Revolution], we're really looking at solving some of those problems.
"With the GameCube, we originally thought we'd be able to use the functionality of the L and R buttons to create some really unique things. In the end we just made basic games and didn't really utilize the full potential, but with the Revolution we're hoping to do is utilize the interface to create more interesting and unique games…."
We're looking at utilizing the functionality of the Revolution and its user interface to create really unique gaming experiences."
"What we really want to do is create something that's not frightening to the user that is usable for a Zelda-type game. We're going to have to figure out a way to marry both those ideas."
Miyamoto says that Nintendo has created such a controller. Asked about all the secrecy surrounding the new controller design, he says, "Graphic chips are one thing. Those are hard to imitate. But if we showed our controller, we'd be revealing way too much. It's very easy to copy. We really want to present our interface, the controller, with software as a package."
"The controllers for this generation do not look fun to use. You don't look at any of the controllers and think, 'Wow, I want to play [with] this.' You look at these controllers and think, 'Oh my God, it looks so difficult.' That scares people away.
"Actually, at Nintendo, we're not even sure which is better. Is the + control pad the better way to, go or is the analog stick the better way to go? I haven't really been able to decide which is best." Using the analog and the L and R shoulder buttons was maybe a little hard for the younger players. We were not able to use that functionality very well in games either. On this next one [Revolution], we're really looking at solving some of those problems.
"With the GameCube, we originally thought we'd be able to use the functionality of the L and R buttons to create some really unique things. In the end we just made basic games and didn't really utilize the full potential, but with the Revolution we're hoping to do is utilize the interface to create more interesting and unique games…."
We're looking at utilizing the functionality of the Revolution and its user interface to create really unique gaming experiences."
"What we really want to do is create something that's not frightening to the user that is usable for a Zelda-type game. We're going to have to figure out a way to marry both those ideas."
Miyamoto says that Nintendo has created such a controller. Asked about all the secrecy surrounding the new controller design, he says, "Graphic chips are one thing. Those are hard to imitate. But if we showed our controller, we'd be revealing way too much. It's very easy to copy. We really want to present our interface, the controller, with software as a package."
Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:27
Joji wrote:
I'm not going into Nintendo inventing the analogue stick, but it was Nintendo that done the first pad with an analogue stick that you controlled a fully 3D game with such incredible control AND TOOK IT GLOBAL, besides what analogue was happening on the PC (if you can't understand that you need a grey matter transplant). If Sega's Afterburner etc used their pad to enhance the game in full 3D then bravo to Sega but this I doubt very much.
This discussion was about how Sony "ripped off" Nintendo's analogue stick and why Nintendo didn't patent it. Nik pointed out that Nintendo didn't invent the analogue stick and couldn't patent it since there was prior art.
Now you appear to be twisting the argument towards using an analogue stick with variable levels of sensitivity to make a 3D character sneak, walk or run around a 3D environment. That is an application of the technology, not inventing it.
Mario 64 let you control the 3D character using the analogue stick, not the controller. The controller sent data to the N64 console, it's the software that interprets the data that gives the functionality you describe. In Rainbow 6 and others, you use the analogue stick to control a cursor over a 2D map, same controller, different interpretation in software.
What you are saying is equivalent to saying that Douglas Engelbart didn't invent the computer mouse because he didn't use it to play Doom. Obviously id software invented the mouse and deserved to patent it. Those Unreal guys just ripped them off.
The N64 was the first popular console designed to use 3D in its games. It was also the first popular console to include an analogue stick with the bundled controller. However Nintendo didn't invent either.
Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:34
tyrion wrote:
Joji wrote:
I'm not going into Nintendo inventing the analogue stick, but it was Nintendo that done the first pad with an analogue stick that you controlled a fully 3D game with such incredible control AND TOOK IT GLOBAL, besides what analogue was happening on the PC (if you can't understand that you need a grey matter transplant). If Sega's Afterburner etc used their pad to enhance the game in full 3D then bravo to Sega but this I doubt very much.
This discussion was about how Sony "ripped off" Nintendo's analogue stick and why Nintendo didn't patent it. Nik pointed out that Nintendo didn't invent the analogue stick and couldn't patent it since there was prior art.
Now you appear to be twisting the argument towards using an analogue stick with variable levels of sensitivity to make a 3D character sneak, walk or run around a 3D environment. That is an application of the technology, not inventing it.
Mario 64 let you control the 3D character using the analogue stick, not the controller. The controller sent data to the N64 console, it's the software that interprets the data that gives the functionality you describe. In Rainbow 6 and others, you use the analogue stick to control a cursor over a 2D map, same controller, different interpretation in software.
What you are saying is equivalent to saying that Douglas Engelbart didn't invent the computer mouse because he didn't use it to play Doom. Obviously id software invented the mouse and deserved to patent it. Those Unreal guys just ripped them off.
The N64 was the first popular console designed to use 3D in its games. It was also the first popular console to include an analogue stick with the bundled controller. However Nintendo didn't invent either.
Not to mention as well, that the controllers actually take the "analogue" information and "digitize" it.
There was also a bunch of home "Pong" sets that played numerous games such as shoot the dot and crude football. A few of these also had "analogue" sticks. Considering I was playing those back in 1978 I think Nintendo truly got pipped to the post.
Ultimately though, this is more a question on what technology patents mean and how they are interpreted. The vibration patents held by Immersion and Nintendo are only subtley different on paper and virtually unnoticiable in use.
Now, if Nintendo had made a patent on thumbsticks using magnets they MAY have had a case. Who owns THAT patent? It's the method all of the modern consoles use.
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There's a big difference between a control stick (or joystick) and an analogue control stick. One is analogue, one isn't!
As far as I know, Nintendo invented the first analogue control stick. Without which, ps2 and xbox would be rubbish.
Well then, you don't know much, do you? As I said, the 5200 WAS ANALOG. Here's a description of the 5200:
"In hopes of obliterating the competition, Atari designer, Craig Asher helped engineer the "analog" controller. It gives players full, 360° control of the action on-screen. The 5200 controller contains two other features which made Atari's unique to any other system built by 1982: First, It offers speed variability. When a joystick is held in a single direction long enough, a player can increase his or her rate of on-screen movement. Second, it contains an easy-access PAUSE button, enabling players to easily freeze their games indefinitely. This immediately became a normal feature on most every subsequent system controller. Unfortunately there turned out to be a major drawback to this groundbreaking technology. The analog controllers never caught on with consumers because they are "non-centering," meaning they do not feature a neutral position. There is no way to come to an immediate stop. This factor will tend to inflict a high level of frustration on any 5200 player who tackles a game which requires precision stopping and starting movements like Frogger or Pac-Man. The controllers were also apparently not made with durability in mind and are quite easily broken. "
Now, instead of clinging to the hopes that Nintendo created everything wonderful in the world, why don't you bother to find out if my previous post was correct, before trying to say that I don't know what analog is?
So, I guess you're wrong, right?